Common Misconceptions Debunked

As the Primary winds down and as we draw closer to two more contests this upcoming Tuesday, the hit-and-run tactics have picked up.

As an Obama supporter, I feel it's necessary to discuss these hits and these potential smears, perhaps expose where they seem to fester most and if possible, debunk them or expound on how they are likely false.

I intend no malice, as always, but the last few days, I've seen a fever pitch increase in some members of our community when it comes to negativity.

Senator Obama (D-IL) is a sexist.

This is a common attack and not without warrant or even merit. To better understand this, I've taken a few minutes to reflect on just what women go through; I've discussed this with my fiancée and mother and aunt; the first supports Senator Obama, the latter two support Senator Clinton.

My mother is an average woman, whose worked a large portion of her life, has been through the 60s and 70s and who has experienced the women's movement first hand. She doesn't dislike Senator Obama but she's someone who has passionately said she wants to vote for Senator Clinton (and did so in the Kansas Caucuses) and has largely said "because she's a woman and we NEED A WOMAN", the last part in a giddy, enthusiastic vote.

She often 'trolls' me on the phone, so to speak, especially when Senator Clinton does something exceptionally well by rubbing it in, but that's another story for another time.

My aunt is also a Kansan; she's different from my mother in that she's in her eighties - she loves Governor Sebelius but, as I've mentioned in a few comments, she's racist. Not the sort of racism that leads to trouble outside her home but the sort of racism that comes from that era, the era that still plagues people like Senator Byrd or 20% of West Virginia. She thinks Senator Obama is a wise-ass and calls him a "nigger" - but she surprised me when she said she'd vote for him over Senator McCain in November if it came to it.

And so I thought about these two people, both Clinton supporters, one racist, one not, one old, one at midlife and realize where a lot of people are coming from.

There is sexism in our media; one need look no further than Chris Matthews.

And I will admit to knowing the following: Senator Obama did say Senator Boxer was a cutie, did say 'the claws came out' and did say Senator Clinton was 'down' and that he did call a professional 'sweetie.'

But I believe strongly, that isn't sexism. Sexism is women making .58 or .70 to every dollar men make; sexism is Chris Matthews saying Senator Clinton is only where she is because her husband had an affair; sexism is saying women belong in the kitchen and should keep quiet.

That's sexism. What Senator Obama engaged in is what I have noticed both females and males engage in as a society - being coy with the other sex. Whether it be women saying men are stupid, mocking their laziness in commercials or calling groups of men "the boys", or saying "such a hottie", or the reverse: men saying women are emotional, mocking their cleanliness or saying "hot or cute". It's very light but the key is both sides do it.

Women engage in positive sexism every time they state "I'm voting for her because she's a woman," just as blacks engage in positive racism every time they vote for Senator Obama "because he's black like me".

Not everything is so black and white in our society - the people who think everything is clear, cut and dry are the Pat Buchanans and Ann Coulters of our world who seek to use that which we have pushed and progressed for against us. Senator Obama did apologize and he will do so, but we must understand that we all do this and that Senator Obama is not perfect.

He's not a misogynist and he's not sexist; he has a caring family with two girls and a strong wife, was raised by his mother, didn't feel comfortable around his grandfather and adored his grandmother Tutu, whom he dedicates "The Audacity of Hope" to. We all say little things that can be construed to be offensive; and some of it may hurt.

But I think to make the case that Senator Obama is a sexist or a chauvinist is a stretch.

Senator Obama (D-IL) did a lot to prevent Michigan and Florida from revoting and additionally broke the rules by having ads run in Florida

First, Michigan. Every five comments regarding Michigan involve Senator Obama "blocking" a revote; this is untrue because Senator Clinton pushed something that would eventually be her undoing regarding the cause to have Michigan revote:

Pushing that only Democrats vote and that only Democrats that voted in the first vote be allowed to vote.

The voter lists that would show this were locked away and the logistics of meeting that specific demand led to the April 4th ruling to not have a revote.

Senator Clinton had, at the time, been lobbying the media to portray it as if it were Senator Obama's fault. This was not the case and almost every poll at the time showed Senator Obama running dead-even with Senator Clinton in the state.

A revote would not have effected the outcome and would in fact favor Senator Obama.

A month later and a proposed revote would help Obama entirely, as he would carry the state whether it be an open or closed primary. Most polls now even show Senator Clinton losing Michigan to Senator McCain, a ridiculous notion, but perhaps insight into just how Michigan voters feel.

On "Advertising in Florida":

In the run-up to Super Tuesday on February 5, the Obama campaign ran a nationwide television advertising campaign that was shown in all states, including Florida. Obama's campaign asked for the ads not to be shown in Florida, but were told by the cable networks this was not possible. The campaign then sought and received permission to run the ad from South Carolina Democratic chairwoman Carol Fowler as at that point South Carolina had not already voted

Carol Fowler is one of the committee members who leveled the restriction on advertising in the state and furthermore, no one should have to be millions more to run advertisements in individual states; if Senator Clinton had the funds necessary to do so, she would have done the same.

Florida has more basis to be counted at half-delegation than Michigan because at least both were on the ballot - but by international standards, it was still an unfair contest as neither candidate was allowed to campaign there.

Senator Obama (D-IL) will lose in November.

This is an opinion stated as fact; no person can ascertain whether Senator Obama will or will not lose in November. Senator Kerry was pegged as a winner in early-April and even exit polling on the day of the election said he would win the 270 electoral votes necessary to become President.

The fact of the matter is, is polling is unreliable - one need only look at New Hampshire, Indiana, North Carolina and the myriad of other polls touted as 'reliable', which have, somewhere along the lines, failed to predict who would win. Predicting who will win isn't for the weak and at the same time, it's not a precise science.

Walter Mondale, Dukakis and various other losers have been predicted to win in November.

We have elections for a reason and while the superdelegates were created to prevent "crisis", being down 3 points in 6 or 7 battleground states isn't a crisis. Superdelegates seem to agree with the idea as only two weeks ago, Senator Clinton was up 20; now she's down by the same amount and since Super Tuesday, Senator Obama has gained 140 to her paltry 20.

People who nay-say and tell us of "Impending Republican Attacks" forget that they're already incoming; Senator Obama has been focused on by the Republicans not because he's weaker but because they realize they have issues. They've tried numerous attacks, have their strongest warriors Limbaugh and Hannity on the offensive and have seen losses.

The three special elections all involved Senator Obama in some form or another - whether it be the old Hastert seat that Obama campaigned and helped in or the two southern seats where the Republicans spent cool millions in an attempt to tie Democrats to Obama, it's obvious: the Republicans thought they could influence our opinions by trying to peg Obama as a potential spoiler of seats.

It's failed and concern trolling won't work. Both Senators Obama and Clinton are strong candidates with strengths, Senator Clintons in Appalachia and Florida, and Senator Obama in the Purple West, Midwest, Northwest and Swing states of Minnesota and Wisconsin.

I see this a lot on Hillaryis44.org but Senator Obama's support is not restricted to "eggheads" and "blacks" - Senator Obama's support consists of working-class whites.

You forget Iowa and you'll likely forget Oregon, but both are filled with whites and few blacks. Oregon's nothing to shake your first at, either, as it's filled with working class whites.

And we don't decide elections by how many whites vote for Senator Obama; we decide it by how many delegates he received, and at this current juncture, it's 2025. It may raise on May 31st, but for the moment, that is the threshold.

Senator Obama is strong west of the Mississippi and that's where he'll look to hit 270+ in November.

I'll have other things to debunk later but I need to go help some neighbors.

I hope I've helped clear some things up. Thank you.



Display:


Tip Jar (2.00 / 48)

Both our candidates our strong; if I can say it, I think you can too.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:17:28 PM EST

Re: Tip Jar (2.00 / 17)

Yes We Can!

(OK, that kind of hurt to say, but I imagine i'll get over it over time)


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:20:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (1.50 / 6)

To me he's a center-right candidate, nowhere near as progressive as Hillary.

Far to the right of where Bill Clinton was in 1992


Universal healthcare IS a Democratic value
It's been defeated
Obama has the best $PIN that money can buy.
by architek on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:30:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (1.90 / 10)

If Obama is "center-right", then John McCain is a Catholic restorationist, or something. Seriously, what a ridiculous statement.


by amiches on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:33:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (2.00 / 9)

American politics runs from the centre to the right. At best both Senators Obama and Clinton are a smidgeon left of centre (and both will doubtless be portrayed as dirty leeeeebruls.)  

The few true leftists are quickly dismissed (and are usually crazy anyway).


by grass on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:34:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

A very astute point. (2.00 / 10)

Very few people make it because it's something that makes you realize just how sad an atmosphere we live in.

Ever since the Republicans successfully made it embarrassing to be liberal, everyone that wants to win takes positions that are on right side of the political spectrum.

Political compass analyzed it perfectly, as far as I'm concerned:

I even made a little 'X' for where I sit. But I can tell you I won't be voting for Ralph Nader, even if he sounds sane to me.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:16:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Good matrix (2.00 / 3)

Turns out I'm Purple!

At a swag I'd put myself at (2,-7) if I have my x,y axis correct...  Maybe (1,-4) or even (-1-4) depending how one defines the terms.

As I said very recently:

If I started to map my beliefs and how they fit to various political positions I'd need an n-dimensional chart with footnotes everywhere.

-chris


"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are for. Sail out to sea and do new things." Admiral Grace Hopper, computer pioneer
by chrisblask on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:05:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A very astute point. (2.00 / 5)

When I took that test it turns out I'm to the left of Nader. I don't trust it 100% though, as it's based on statements made by the candidates which can be interpreted multiple ways without nuance, and their actions can be vastly different from their initial promises.

I still think it's a pretty accurate snapshot.


by grass on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A very astute point. (2.00 / 1)

What's the url for that?


Everybody, do the Flowbee!
by Jess81 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here ya go: (2.00 / 5)

Political Compass

Then you go down to 'Take the Test' just below the first header. Or if you want to see the Primary candidates, that's even further down.

Pretty long test but it cuts to the point. And it even shows past leaders and where they're situated.

I think it's pretty comprehensive.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:21:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Neat (2.00 / 3)

Pretty close.  Turns out I am purple, Somewhere aound the intersection of Jose Zapatero Street and Nelson Mandela Avenue...

Though I could see myself answering a lot of those questions a notch either way.  Best to do these things quickly and not let yoursef think about them.

-thanks!

-chris


"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are for. Sail out to sea and do new things." Admiral Grace Hopper, computer pioneer
by chrisblask on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:53:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here ya go: (none / 0)

I can't believe I'm more liberal than Nader.  I took the test a while ago, and my score was like -9, -8.  But I'm in good company with Gandhi, Mandela, and the Dalai Lama.


by The Distillery on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:50:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Here ya go: (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, that's where I am.  Between Mandela and the Dalai Lama.

Which means that they forgot to ask me my opinion on God-Kings.


Everybody, do the Flowbee!
by Jess81 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 04:05:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A very astute point. (none / 0)

I have little faith in a system that puts Ron Paul closer to authoritarian than libertarian.


by KyleJRM on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:23:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

His (2.00 / 4)

'Libertarian' views are mainly economic (e.g. taxes, withdrawal from the WTO). On that matrix social issues are on the vertical scale and economic issues on the horizontal. His stance on social issues are mostly conservative - pro life, pro gun, anti immigration. However, he scores better on these than the other republicans as he simply says leave it up to the states to decide.  


by grass on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:15:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A very astute point. (2.00 / 4)

Wow Obama and Hillary are right next to each other.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:53:03 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A very astute point. (none / 0)

That's shocking to you?  They don't seriously diverge on any substantial policies.  Yea, their healthcare initiatives are different but the differences pale in comparison to anything that the Right has come up with.


by Gene In PA on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:25:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I am to the left of the (2.00 / 3)

Dali Llama (or however you spell that) I am also a huge populist, which is probably why Edward's platform appealed to me the most.


accepting McLettuce is like being 9 years old and forced to eat your own cooking
by Sychotic1 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:21:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I am to the left of the (2.00 / 2)

I was to the left of the Dali Llama too!


by mnl1012 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:27:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I was at Dali Lama, orientation too (2.00 / 3)

That makes me smile.


by barnowl on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:44:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Mu husband and daughter and I are (1.00 / 1)

voting for Nader if BO is the Dem candidate.

Just saying.


by Shazone on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:13:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mu husband and daughter and I are (none / 0)

Because he's polically closer to Hillary? HA! Having met Hillary at least three times and known people who know her well, lets just say Obama is a lot closer than good ole Ralph's beliefs.  


Obama 2008!
by lollydee on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:22:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mu husband and daughter and I are (2.00 / 2)

On trade and certain economic issues, Clinton actually is closer to Nader than Obama is, and Clinton's record on "ending corporate welfare" and "making government work for everyone, not just the rich or powerful" is one of the best in the Senate, and certainly better than Obama's record.

You can study their respective records here:

http://www.progressivepunch.org/members. jsp?search=selectScore&chamber=Senat e&scoreSort=lifetime


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:46:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It was Ralph Nader himself (none / 0)

who said Barack Obama was closer to him on Meet the Press.

But whatever. This argument is stupid.

Vote for whoever you want.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:48:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It was Ralph Nader himself (2.00 / 1)

When did he say that? I'm curious, because when I last saw him on MTP he was lambasting both Clinton and Obama and suggesting that Edwards was more in line with his positions.

Has he appeared on MTP since then and spoken more favorably about Obama?

In any case, I do agree with your last statement. It's just that I've always found Obama's trashing of Hillary over NAFTA to be completely disingenuous and one of the reasons I was turned off by his campaign.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:04:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Mu husband and daughter and I are (2.00 / 2)

I'm very sorry to hear that. Will you at least try to get a Democratic House and Senate?


by goshzilla on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:32:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

We will vote downticket for any Dem... (1.00 / 2)

as long as s/he did not support Obama.


by Shazone on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:52:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We will vote downticket for any Dem... (none / 0)

In that case, thanks for leaving our generation with a massive military debt and broken-down health care system!!! You're the greatest!!!!


by goshzilla on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're welcome. (1.00 / 1)


by Shazone on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:10:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are turning not on Obama but the entire (none / 0)

Democratic party.

Therefore, you are doing more than your job of following this:

> > Step three: As the Democ-rat nomination narrows in on a candidate crank up the heat.   Your ident that supports the winning candidate should be a total ass to the losers.  The loser  ident should start calling for a voter boycott on the winner.


"A ship in port is safe, but that is not what ships are for. Sail out to sea and do new things." Admiral Grace Hopper, computer pioneer
by chrisblask on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:21:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ralph Nader: (2.00 / 1)

AMY GOODMAN: What do you think of Barack Obama's recent endorsement by Massachusetts Senator Ted Kennedy, along with Congressmember Patrick Kennedy, his son, and his niece, Caroline Kennedy, the daughter of President John F. Kennedy? This is the Obama campaign commercial made by Caroline Kennedy.

     CAROLINE KENNEDY: Once we had a president who made people feel hopeful about America and brought us together to do great things. Today, Barack Obama gives us that same chance. He makes us believe in ourselves again, that when we act as one nation we can overcome any challenge. People always tell me how my father inspired them. I feel that same excitement now. Barack Obama can lift America and make us one nation again.

     BARACK OBAMA: I'm Barack Obama, and I approve this message.

AMY GOODMAN: Your response to Caroline Kennedy's endorsement and her comparison of Barack Obama to John Kennedy?

RALPH NADER: Well, I think it's an inspirational message. I think the Kennedys made the right move. I think they have been simmering quietly over the years about the behavior and performance of Bill Clinton. I think that's part of the shift away from Clinton to Obama. Whether it means more votes remains to be seen, but it certainly has given Obama a higher profile for a few days.

Hillary Clinton is a corporate Democrat. There's no better evidence of that than the Fortune magazine cover story in June of last year, which basically said business loves Hillary. Hillary is a big business candidate.

RALPH NADER: My assessment of Barack Obama is that he knows what the score is in terms of the male distribution of power. He knows what he has said in the past about the Israeli-Palestinian issue and the need for Palestinian rights and a two-state solution. He knows that this war was a criminal war in Iraq and we've got to get out of it in a responsible, expeditious manner. He knows that corporations have too much power over workers and consumers and small taxpayers and elections and the government.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:54:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Ralph Nader: (2.00 / 1)

I hadn't heard that interview, so thanks. It seems to me that Nader, like so many other progressives, hasn't done due diligence on Obama's positions, his economic advisers, or his Wall Street connections. I freely admit that both candidates deserve the label "corporate Democrat" (there aren't all that many who don't) and if I thought that Obama would do any better than Hillary on I/P issues, I would feel better about his campaign. But it seems to me that Obama once held positions the were progressive and was somewhat sympathetic to Palestinians when those were politically advantageous positions to take. But now, not so much. I would like to be wrong, because in all likelihood Obama will be the nominee.


Fortune strums a mournful tune for those whose campaigns peak too soon. --Bored of the Rings
by Inky on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:30:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (2.00 / 4)

I wouldn't call Hillary a progressive with her AUMF vote.

As far as Bill goes, maybe you could explain why he cost us both the House and the Senate in 1994 and he could never get that back.
His performance was less than stellar what with NAFTA and de-regulation. The economic boom we enjoyed was because of the emergence of the dot coms and would have been enjoyed regardless of who was president at the time. I'll give him the balanced budget but beyond that he didn't exactly glow in the dark.

Obama maybe somewhat a centrist but I'll take that, honesty and superior management (think ability to run an effective campaign) over subterfuge and triangulation or a Republican any day.


by Bastet on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:22:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I've expounded on this before and I'll say it (2.00 / 11)

again: there are three things that cost Senator Clinton this primary.

1) Mark Penn

  1. Inevitability meme
  2. The Iraq War Vote

Four and to a lesser degree because I seriously believe if one or two of those aforementioned issues changes, Clinton is the nominee, is her going up against Barack Obama, who was the only person who was going to be able to peal away African-American support, which is essential in the states he ran up the score in.

But all the chips fell against her, and she did herself no favors in choosing loyalty over intelligence and gumption.

She needed to only contest those midwestern states and purple west states and we'd be singing a different tune.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:36:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've expounded on this before and I'll say it (2.00 / 6)

Ah very true and you know what. I would have voted for her. There is no way I want to be responsible for another Republican in the WH. I would have had to swallow very hard but I would have done it.

We just can not afford 4 more years of Republican war and fiscal insanity. That would harm us for years to come and not just the Supreme Court issue but also the federal bench. I think sometimes people don't consider the fed bench, geezez, those are lifetime appointments also.


by Bastet on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:49:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've expounded on this before and I'll say it (2.00 / 1)

Hillary should have run in '04.  She would have won.  I would have voted for her then.  I would have voted for her this time, were she the nominee.


We have nothing to fear but fear itself. And clowns.
by haremoor on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:38:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (none / 0)

you must have been born after 1992. Let me explain the house was lost because of Postal scandal, check kiting and speaker wright's book deal. Sam Nunn's sabotage of gays in the military


by rocky on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:22:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (2.00 / 6)

Both are fairly centrist. I hold the thought that Hillary is a bit more progressive than Barack, but, Barack is far more liberal than McCain.

There were no "real" left of center liberals in this race, and chances are, we won't have one in a Presidential race for a while.


Hillary supporter for Barack Obama in 2008
by zcflint05 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:25:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (none / 0)

Kucinich is way left.  Too bad that odd little bugger is never viable.  I love Dennis...


Unseen, in the background, Fate was quietly slipping the lead into the boxing glove.
by fogiv on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:10:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (none / 0)

and Elizabeth would've been the most drop dead gorgeous 1st lady in our country's history!


by Djo on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:43:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Barack opposed the Iraq War from the beginning (2.00 / 5)

when it was not politically safe to do so - Hillary did not.

That fact alone shows that Obama is far more progressive than Hillary.

Also, Barack's campaign does not accept corporate PAC dopnations - Hillary's does. She is a corporatist candidate.

She voted for the resolution declaring the Iranian Gaurd a terrorist group - an excuse for George Bush to eventually invade Iran.

Hillary is the least progressive of any of the candidates we had this year.


by Deano963 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:57:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack opposed the Iraq War from the beginning (2.00 / 3)

when it was not politically safe to do so - Hillary did not.

He was a state senator in a very liberal district.  I'd hardly call that courageous.

Hillary did not get down on her hands and knees and beg the Moveon.org wing of the party for forgiveness for her vote when she decided to run for office.  She stood by her vote and accepted responsibility for it.

She voted for the Kyl-Lieberman amendment, joining half of the Democratic caucus in supporting it.  The other candidates (who were sitting Senators) voted against it, except for one who did not show up for the vote, and they all piled on her for decision.  She showed up, cast a difficult vote, and stood by it.   That's courage.  Casting a difficult and controversial vote.  She could have hid away on the campaign trail throwing lame excuses around, but she didn't.

Hillary is courageous.


Atdleft's co-blogger opposing John McCain
by psychodrew on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:38:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

So what??? (1.83 / 6)

I don't care if he was nothing but a town crier from the most liberal town in America - it dosen't change the fact that he had the courage to stand up to George W. Bush and Hillary did not.

Besides, Hillary is a Senator of New York, correct? Is NY not a liberal state? If your only excuse is "Barack represented a liberal district", then why didn't Hillary come out against it as well?

B/c she was a coward, too afraid to take a politically courageous stand against George W. Bush.

It dosen't matter AT ALL what job he had at the time. The point is that at the time it did not seem that it was likely to be a stance that would help him politically in the future. Of course, Hillary made the calculated decision that it would help her in the future, so she supported it. Instead of standing up for progressive ideals, she made a calculated, political decision.

Many other Dem Senators had the good sense at the time to see that George Bush was lying - why didn't Hillary? Can you answer me that question?

Courageous? LOL......

Hillary is a coward.


by Deano963 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:49:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what??? (2.00 / 1)

I don't care if he was nothing but a town crier from the most liberal town in America - it dosen't change the fact that he had the courage to stand up to George W. Bush and Hillary did not.

By the very fact that he had a state office from a very liberal district, his "standing up to George W. Bush" required little, if any, courage. His opposition to the war is admirable, but just not courageous. Some might even say it was politically expedient, given his position and his constituency.


by NJ Liberal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:18:06 AM EST
[ Parent ]

What don't you get? (2.00 / 2)

What don't you get about the fact that no matter how liberal his district is, he was eventually going to have to live with the consequences of his decision on a statewide or national level when he ran for higher office in the future?b And that at the time of his anti-Iraq War speech the country was overwhelmingly in favor of invading Iraq?

It dosen't matter what office he held at the time. It takes COURAGE to stand against something that is popular no matter what district you represent.

It takes COURAGE to stand against something that is popular. The Iraq War(or the idea of invading) at the time was very popular at the time. Which explains why Hillary made the choice she did.


by Deano963 on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What don't you get? (none / 0)

It takes COURAGE to stand against something that is popular

Agreed. But the war was NOT popular when and where Obama made his stand.

I'm not saying that he is not courageous, but this act is not what defines him as such.


by NJ Liberal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:24:29 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What don't you get? (none / 0)

Obama made his stand in October 2002, during the runup to the actual invasion. The war was incredibly popular at that point. Furthermore, what could he have done in his position as a state senator that would've been more
"courageous"? He did things about as right as he could've, and if you've ever actually read the speech, he got things so damn right it's scary:

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income, to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.

He wasn't exactly echoing the stuff coming from our national level D's. He was setting an example for them.


by Djo on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What don't you get? (none / 0)

I'm not saying that he didn't make a good speech - perhaps even a great one. And you're exactly right - there wasn't much more he could have done as a state senator.

But - Those facts do NOT make him "courageous"...They make him a state senator who made a (maybe great) speech against the war.

   Joe: What are you doing?

   Bob: I'm keeping the wild elephants out of New Jersey.

   Joe: But Bob, there earn't any wild elephants in New Jersey

   Bob: See what a great job I'm doing?

Obama was no more courageous in his stand than Bob was a great elephant hunter.


by NJ Liberal on Sun May 18, 2008 at 06:32:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What don't you get? (none / 0)

I'm not sure what elephant hunting and political initiatives have to do with each other, but I some how feel like reading that may have made me permanantly dumber.

To say that the policies and actions of state level officials do not have significance and weight on a national stage is absurd. State level officials are still subject to the same type of backlash a senator or representative would within their constituents. It carries political risk. Furthermore, the actions of state level government officials have often been instrumental in getting action on a federal level as is currently happening with California when it comes to regulating emissions and gay marraige.

Whatever, I'd hate to make you admit he did something right and take a stand for his principals. But at the same time, I don't get why it's so hard to look at the facts and say "damn, that was pretty smart of him"


by Djo on Mon May 19, 2008 at 03:16:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What don't you get? (none / 0)

I guess you didn't bother to read the rest of my comments. I said he made a good speech. possibly a great speech. It was YOU who said he couldn't do much more than that as a state senator. I agreed with you.

I said he did something right. I also said that doing something right does not necessarily make someone courageous.

As far as backlash goes, he was a state senator in a liberal anti-war district. If he had made a pro-war speech, maybe then he could have expected backlash.

Just because there aren't any wild elephants in NJ, it does not automatically follow that Bob is a great elephant hunter.

Just because Obama made a good anti-war speech (possibly the greatest anti-war speech ever made), it does not automatically follow that he is a courageous speaker.

OK? Now I think I'm getting permanently dumber from this conversation.

Can we move on to something else now?


by NJ Liberal on Mon May 19, 2008 at 07:40:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what??? (none / 0)

I can explain to you very simply why Hillary voted for AUMF.  She wanted to become president in 2008.  And it was perceived to be politically suicidal to vote against that bill if you had that aspiration.  Its the same reason why John Edwards, John Kerry, Joe Biden, and Chris Dodd voted for the bill.

Obama supporters don't want to hear this, but if you really believe Obama, harboring similar goals, wouldn't have voted for AUMF in 2002 were he in the senate, then you simply don't understand what this process is all about.  These people aren't principled champions of the common man.  They are unbelievably ambitious and calculating individuals single mindedly set on becoming THE MOST POWERFUL HUMAN ON THE PLANET.  That's the goal.  Everything else is secondary.  

Of course Obama would have voted for AUMF if he thought that he would be running for the presidency in a few years.  At the time, he seemed light years away from the presidency, so this kind of calculus wasn't relevant.


John McCain: Extending SCHIP would be an "unfunded liability."
by Fuzzy Dunlop on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:10:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: So what??? (none / 0)

So he deserves no credit for speaking out against the war as early as October 2002? What could he have done that would've proved his resolve? I just don't think there is any way to credit somebody with doing something absolutely right by your standards.


by Djo on Sun May 18, 2008 at 02:55:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack opposed the Iraq War from the beginning (none / 0)

Courageousness is hardly a virtue when it is employed in furtherance of wrongheaded policies.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:21:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrongheaded policies... (none / 0)

...like not going into Iraq? Sorry to say, but I have more than 4000 American soldiers and more than half a trillion dollars that might disagree with you on that one, buddy.


by goshzilla on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:37:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Wrongheaded policies... (none / 0)

I think we're on the same side on this one.  The original poster is claiming Hillary is courageous and I am suggesting that her voting record (including her vote to go to war in Iraq) suggests otherwise, or at least if she is courageous she is employing her courage in furtherance of wrongheaded policies (the Iraq War included).  I think you may have misunderstood my post.


by DreamsOfABlueNation on Sun May 18, 2008 at 09:43:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wouldn't call it courage (2.00 / 1)

I call it political cynicism.


by barnowl on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:47:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack opposed the Iraq War from the beginning (2.00 / 4)

It was courageous for anyone who had political ambitions beyond that district, which we know he had.   And it wasn't that he gave a speech against the war, it was that it was an awesome speech. From that speech:

I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences

He shows he understood that we might acheive a military victory, but that would not be the end of our problems. 5 years later he deserves credit not just for being opposed to the war,  but understanding even with a victory we were looking at being bogged down in the region for an undetermined length.

What I am opposed to is the attempt by political hacks like Karl Rove to distract us from a rise in the uninsured, a rise in the poverty rate, a drop in the median income - to distract us from corporate scandals and a stock market that has just gone through the worst month since the Great Depression.
That's what I'm opposed to. A dumb war. A rash war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle but on politics.

Here he mentions alot of the major issues that this campaign was about.  And this is as  a State Senator in 2002.  And  "not on principle but on politics" has to pretty well describe how alot of us feel about Hillary Clinton's vote.

He needs to be given alot more credit than just delivering an anti-war speech.  He attacked the problems facing us today.  Where was Hillary Clinton?  Where was her experience and judgement and willingness to fight?


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:17:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Barack opposed the Iraq War from the beginning (none / 0)

"Hillary is the least progressive of any of the candidates we had this year."

And yet her voting record proves otherwise.  Maybe you should look it up before you spout off.


by bellarose on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:47:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (2.00 / 2)

Hillary: DLC leader, supporter of invading Iraq, who feels lobbyists "represent real Americans"... yeah, real progressive.
by mikeinsf on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:29:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (none / 0)

Of the two Hillary Clinton is the more progressive.  BTW, nurses unions hire lobbyists.  Some lobbyists do good work.  


by bellarose on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:11:44 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (2.00 / 1)

I'm not with you on Hillary being more progressive than Obama.  It's close, but I'm not there.  On health care, Hillary Clinton may well be more progressive than Barack Obama.  But on foreign policy, crime, and many cultural issues (i.e., gay marriage), Barack Obama clearly is to the left of Hillary Clinton.  I think the Clinton campaign would even acknowledge that.

In fact, I believe even the Clinton campaign acknowledges that Obama is more liberal than she is.  There isn't very much difference between the two on the issues, but Obama is slightly more progressive than Clinton.


by Brad G on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:56:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Explain why you see Obama as a progressive? (none / 0)

sorry, progressives don't vote AUMF. It *is* a litmus test.
by mikeinsf on Sun May 18, 2008 at 04:03:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't care HOW progressive a candidate is (2.00 / 6)

if that candidate votes for war with Iraq or Iran or any other country that's not a security threat to our country.

We're three TRILLION dollars in the tank because of this fiasco.  Ret. Gen. William Odom, shortly after the war began, announced that it was the worst strategic disaster in the history of the United States. Worst.  Strong language.  Three TRILLION dollars could have paid for a lot of progressive programs, but it is gone, right down the rat hole, and some of our "PROGRESSIVE" Democrats either cheered it on or sat idly by while it happened.

So is Hillary more progressive than Obama?  I don't think so, but even if she was, I don't care.  It misses the single biggest issue of our generation.


by Dumbo on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:53:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (2.00 / 6)

How I wish I could give you some mojo.  Take the phantom kind.


Capitalization is the difference between "I had to help my uncle Jack off a horse..." and "I had to help my uncle jack off a horse..."
by igottheblues on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (2.00 / 2)

Unable to rec or rate. Reasons unknown....

You were probably punished for recommending the wrong diary (or diaries), much like a few dozen other Obama supporters.


by Johnny Gentle Famous Crooner on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:01:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (2.00 / 1)

not a bad diary, however you have not 'debunked' anything by giving us your opinion. And when you come right down to it as you state in the diary this is what you believe. but that is not debunking which is much, much different.


by zerosumgame on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:53:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (2.00 / 4)

I've debunked the Michigan/Florida lie as well as the Florida advertisement lie.

I've debunked the prevalent belief in this community that polls matter by citing that many candidates have polled well in April and even on the day of the  election, only to go down in defeat.

And I suppose I gave my opinion on sexism but the other two are backed by evidence. Michigan and Florida were not Obama's fault, the advertising was sanctioned and polls are not reliable evidence.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:56:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (2.00 / 2)

no you did not you gave your OPINION on what you THINK their motivations were for what the have each done but at no time did you address the issue of BHO and JRE explicitly taking their names off the ballots not as part of any pledge but as a way to pander to the other 3 states, a wholly political move with no motive but pandering. If you leave out big gaping parts of the situation you cannot claim to be in the debunking business.


by zerosumgame on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:00:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (2.00 / 0)

It seems that in addition to pandering it would have the advantage of not letting some dishonest person claim that since his name was on the ballot it was a fair election and should be included in the results.


Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win. ~ Sun Tzu
by Tumult on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:22:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not many black people in Colorado... (2.00 / 2)

...and Obama won that too.

Oh! But Colorado was a caucus state.

Yeah...and it still counts.


by DawnG on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:42:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (none / 0)

What makes you the arbiter of what is sexist and what is not?


by bellarose on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:09:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Considering I reprimand the overzealous (2.00 / 1)

supporters on my side for ludicrous claims of racism, I can take the time to do the same for the other side.

I'll call them as I see them.

And if you don't like it, write a diary about it.

This is just one "Obama isn't sexist" diary debunking the notion spread by six that say he is, where people who believe they are the arbiters of what is and isn't sexist deride a candidate who has done nothing except run against their's.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:35:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Considering I reprimand the overzealous (none / 0)

You need to write from a basic understanding before you dismiss sexism as not-sexism.

sexism is not a matter of opinion


by bellarose on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:49:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (1.00 / 4)

Obama is a fraud and coward.  He's a creation of a political consultant.  He's merely an empty symbol whose candidacy is fueled by naive, elitist supporters and a complicit media.  His campaign has been consistently negative and this "unifier" has managed to divide the democratic party.  Obama and his Animal Farm supporters have ruined the democratic party and once again have managed to lose the White House in a year that should be a cakewalk.


by polson on Sun May 18, 2008 at 10:10:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tip Jar (2.00 / 1)

Nice sig.  It represents accurately the vitriol you spout.
     Nothing you say is based in fact. Nothing you say is constructive. I'll look forward to the day when Obama is the official nominee, and this site throws it's full support behind him.  
     Obama hasn't divided the party - You have.
We have nothing to fear but fear itself. And clowns.
by haremoor on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:34:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Misconceptions Debunked (2.00 / 2)

Good diary - recced.


Everybody, do the Flowbee!
by Jess81 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:19:44 PM EST

Re: Common Misconceptions Debunked (2.00 / 2)

I'm voting for Obama because I think he is cute. I go weak!


Obama/Warner 2008
by MissVA on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:23:13 PM EST

How Dare You Objectify Our Future President. (2.00 / 1)


by dystopianfuturetoday on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:16:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Misconceptions Debunked (none / 0)

That's ok. Many, many more voted for Bill "Elvis" Clinton in '92.


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:22:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Common Misconceptions Debunked (none / 0)

In '92, Bill got under 11 million votes in the primary. So far this year, Obama's received between 16 and 17 million. Do you just mean the ones who voted for them based on adorable charm?
by Jay R on Sun May 18, 2008 at 03:30:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 5)

a i have to disagree with a couple of things here....

1.  BO is not sexist, rather he, many of his supporters and the party establishment have sat silent as this seixism has tainted this nomination race

2.  BO did block the revote in MI

COOPER: Democratic candidates may be focused on next month's Pennsylvania primary, but they haven't forgotten about Florida and Michigan. State leaders, especially Clinton supporters, are struggling to find a way to have their delegates seated at the Democratic National Convention. Right now they're being blocked because the states held their primaries earlier than allowed by the national party rules. You all know this. But not every Democrat is pushing for a re-vote. Gary Tuchman takes a look at the "Raw Politics" going on behind the scenes in Michigan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED CROWD: Count my vote!

GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the year 2000. Democrats are angry. They want a recount in the presidential election. Which they don't get. Fast forward to the present. Instead of a recount, many Democrats want a redo. But this time around, many other Democrats redon't.

BUZZ THOMAS, MICHIGAN STATE SENATOR: I believe the redo effort is dead.

TUCHMAN: Michigan State Senator Buzz Thomas is a co-chair of Barack Obama's Michigan campaign and just led an apparently successful effort to kill legislation to authorize a revote.

THOMAS: I don't believe it's appropriate to change state law at the last moment and insist on a quick fix to a very, very serious question.

JIM BLANCHARD, FORMER MICHIGAN GOVERNOR: I believe that they feel they're ahead and they don't want to have any more losses with big states. TUCHMAN: Former Michigan Governor Jim Blanchard is Hillary Clinton's Michigan campaign co-chairman. He and his candidate want this redo.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON, (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We need to either count the votes that have already been cast in Michigan and Florida or have new full and fair elections.

TUCHMAN: Barack Obama has shown no similar enthusiasm.

SEN. BARACK OBAMA, (D) IL: What we believe is that there should be some way of arriving at a fair settlement that respects the fact that there were rules in place.

TUCHMAN: That fair settlement, says Senator Thomas and his co- chairman, State Senator Tupac Hunter is to split the delegates.

(on camera): If Barack Obama were leading this state but not leading in the country like he is now, would you have been more aggressive to get a redo election here than you have been now?

TUPAC HUNTER, MICHIGAN STATE SENATOR: No. If I was presented with the same redo situation, no. No. I would have explained to the candidate that I supported, I understand your agenda may be X, but as a legislator I'm expected to make sound policy decisions.

TUCHMAN: So you're not trying to help Obama?

HUNTER: It has nothing to do with that.

TUCHMAN: The two Obama chairman say they're troubled by potential legal issues, private funding for a redo you and the burden on county election clerks. They say so many senators agreed it never came to a vote. Dawson Bell is a state capital reporter for the "Detroit Free Press."

DAWSON BELL, "DETROIT FREE PRESS": While there were some pretextual reasons for objecting to a do over election that the principle one was they determined it wouldn't be advantageous to their candidate.

TUCHMAN: Barack Obama?

BELL: Barack Obama.

TUCHMAN: Nobody knows what will happen with Michigan's delegates. Many voters throughout the state are confused and incredulous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michigan screwed up the whole thing.

TUCHMAN (on camera): So nearly eight years after Bush versus Gore the issue of votes not counting is in the headlines once again. But this time the Democrats don't into evidence the republicans as their tormenters. They've got themselves.

BLANCHARD: I'm disappointed in the party leaders in Washington, disappointed in the tactics in this case of the Obama advisers.

THOMAS: I'm sleeping well at night knowing we made the right decision, and luckily, you know, I guess it's good to be in the lead.

TUCHMAN: Gary Tuchman, CNN, Lansing, Michigan.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0 803/28/acd.01.html

emphasis mine.


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:26:45 PM EST

Re: you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 3)

Umm, so if a guy from the Detroit Free Press says it, it must be true?


by KyleJRM on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:29:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 3)

actually he is a state capital reporter for the "Detroit Free Press."  and if not him, who's word should i take on it?


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:32:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 3)

I wouldn't take any reporter at their word alone when they are commentating. And that's not media-bashing, I happen to be a newspaper journalist myself.

You are free to feel that his words carry weight in making your decision, but that is not the same as referencing concrete proof.

He's opining, same as anyone.


by KyleJRM on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:37:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 2)

Well, some hard evidence would be nice, rather than speculation from a reporter. Like a memo, or letter, or... well anything.


by grass on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:39:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

lol. (none / 0)

yep - most campaigns would write a memo (or leave any paper trail) stating that they would disenfranchise for their own benefit.  come on.


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lol. (2.00 / 2)

Oh okay, they had a quiet word and they decided they better not mess with Obama.

Sheesh.


by grass on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:02:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lol. (2.00 / 1)

Grassy knoll, Area 51, Obama suppressing the democratic process. You don't need proof, just faith.
by mikeinsf on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:31:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: lol. (2.00 / 1)

There was a conference call yesterday morning where one campaign claimed a "moral argument" would be to count two states that are generally excluded and not count four others in determining which candidate has received a greater share of the popular vote.

Yeah, I could see a memo happening.

by Jay R on Sun May 18, 2008 at 03:33:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 5)

I love Canadians.  I've driven the Alaska-Canada highway seven times now and never been disappointed with their hospitality and acceptance of me, my family, and (of course) my money.

I'm sure even Canadians can understand that a re-vote in Michigan that was predicated in any way on what occurred in the previous "flawed" vote would, by definition, itself be "flawed."

As a practical matter, it makes no sense whatsoever to sanction two states for conducting their votes out of turn, removing their voice in selection of the nominee, and then reward those same two states by granting them determinative nominee selection powers at the end of the process.  By any objective measure, such a position is (at best) intellectually dishonest.


"The only way I can lose this election is if I'm caught in bed with either a dead girl or a live boy."
by AK Democrat on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 2)

Great Diary Please write more often. Canadians are in love with Obama just as the rest of the world is. Except for a few Clinton supporters and we don't have any McCain supporters. Cheers


by Politicalslave on Sat May 17, 2008 at 07:10:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 1)

Does the reporter cite a source for this information? If not, how does that make him any more believable than anyone else?


by chicagovigilante on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:35:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I do believe Senator Obama (2.00 / 5)

sat on his hands but doing so did very little to prevent it from happening - Senator Clinton tried the "lets get everyone to sign onto wanting a revote" by passing out that little dossier that the Michigan people signed and she signed but Senator Obama didn't to help win the argument.

But it really came down to voting lists and arguments over who would pay and who could vote. I believe Senator Clinton lobbied too strongly and brooked no room for compromise in anyway. All she had to do was say let everyone vote, including the people who hadn't already and who weren't Democrats and Senator Obama would have lost his only argument.

It's a difficult situation but I just don't believe Senator Obama is a major reason the Michigan revote didn't happen. And this crisis had little to do with him in the first place.


Commissar: Canadian Gal; Proletariat Policemen: ragekage, Lord Hadrian. "For the Proletariat!"
by Lord Hadrian on Sat May 17, 2008 at 06:39:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My understanding from inside Michigan (2.00 / 2)

was that while Obama himself might not have derailed a revote his supporters within the state did.  The GOP party leaders played in sly and made public statements that they would agree to any revote scenario that did't cost the state money and THE DEMOCRATS COULD AGREE ON.  But as I understood it, the Obama contingent in the state blocked a number of suggested ways to conduct a re-vote.


Sexism is real.
by grassrootsorganizer on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes and no. (2.00 / 3)

Obama didn't do the revote any favors (at least for the version Clinton was proposing, which had its own issues).  However, the Republican controlled State Senate was never going to approve a new primary and save us from arguing.  In addition, the Senate Majority Leader came out against it around the same time it died.

So, here's how it looks to me, a MI resident.  Firstly, Obama did not fight for nor fight against a redo primary.  Secondly, whether he fought for one or not is irrelevant because it was never going to happen.  Thirdly, politicians from the State of MI are responsible for the conundrum in the first place so I'm not interested in hearing them claim to be "fighting for my right to vote."  It was their political games that got us into this in the first place.

I just wish the whole subject would go away.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:18:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you know i like ya lordy, but (2.00 / 2)

Actually, the reporter's view is in agreement with what Hadrian stated earlier:

Senator Clinton pushed something that would eventually be her undoing regarding the cause to have Michigan revote:

Pushing that only Democrats vote and that only Democrats that voted in the first vote be allowed to vote.

So, he was offered a revote that was no revote at all. It's difficult to conceive of a proposal more deceptive, or (ironically) disenfranchising. Anyone willing to part with their partisan hats for a minute would agree.

You are surprised that his campaign opposed a patently unfair proposal of this nature - why?


It is not because I cannot explain that you won't understand. It is because you won't understand that I cannot explain. - Elie Wiesel
by Sumo Vita on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:39:28 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Short memories in the blogosphere! (2.00 / 2)

Everybody seems to forget that the first team to block a re-vote in Michigan was Team Clinton.  Back in March, Michigan planned to re-caucus, but Clinton nixed it:

http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/camp aign-2008/2008/03/07/clinton-says-no-to- a-caucus-do-over.html
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/democracy/ 78972/

Now, she's objecting to the 60-50 split, and insisting on counting the results as they stand, with zero votes for Obama.  Honestly, I can't see Clinton holding the moral high ground here.


by jere7my on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:17:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Short memories in the blogosphere! (none / 0)

oh -ze caucus - right!


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:22:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Short memories in the blogosphere! (2.00 / 1)

Ignore a million plus potential revoters! We can pack a caucus for a few tens of thousand obama dreamers and win!

Working people and the elderly be damned, we have yuppies and college kids, the Mcgovern/Dukakis coalition is intact and heading to No